12c Grill - Need ID Help

Ok - thanks very much!

Interesting side note to this story:

The guy who came to my house works as an auto mechanic. Doesn't speak a word of English.

He took out his wallet & had a folded piece of paper - with all these stamps in it! (Including this potential Z grill!)

I was somewhat horrified & naturally took a dealer card & put all of his stamps in suitable order for him to take with him.

He is an excited stamp collector - who for some reason got caught up in US stamps - and is eager & doing things properly. He even had flat & rotary stamps with the corners cut away to use as measuring guides. (Naturally, he had a collection of 5-6 stamps he was convinced were 594/596 & a 610 he was convinced was a 613!)

But somehow, it seems this guy stumbled across what appears to be a Z grill! So for all the treasure hunters - and would-be treasure hunters out there - this is an example that shows it is potentially possible...

Yesterday, the guy offered to give the stamp to me as a gift, which I quickly declined. I explained the cert process & told him I would help him if he wishes to pursue that road. To be continued, so it appears...

While I agree this is 'possible' the truth is that the odds are not favorable.

Francis Bacon said it best..."The root of all superstition is that men observe when a thing hits, but not when it misses." So the slippery slope is having people think they will 'hit' a rare stamp when in 99% of the time they will actually 'miss'.

I have seen far more people walk away from the hobby crestfallen that their stamps are not worth much then I have seen someone stay in the hobby because they found a rare stamp.
Don

Here is a Z-I grill from my collection (it's an 85B). On this image you can clearly see that the main part of the grill has grill points that run horizontally and that the two "half" columns of points consist just of a vertical line - not a full grill point.

In the stamp on this thread I can't really make out which way the grill points run. I think that is the critical question here. Are they horizontal grill points or vertical?

Awesome stamp Risny! Great pix too -

Orientation looks similar to me. But 1st time I've even held a Z grill - so was hoping others with more experience with these would chime in...

I just want to add the note that not all Z-grills are of the Z-I type. Here are a couple of pics of a Z-grill on a 3c that has been certified by the PF as 85C:



Note the uniform appearance of the grill points for the entire area of the grill. The half points do not appear. However, if you look at the blowup on the right, the Z-grill "tell" in this case is the horizontal orientation of the grill point "ridge" in each of the points (some show it better than others). While a vertical column of half points is an easily spotted dead ringer for a Z-grill, the horizontal point ridge orientation is also a primary characteristic.

Added note:
For the record, just to be clear, I am not able to see the points on the OP stamp well enough to say with Clark that the column of half points is exactly that. Nor am I able to determine the orientation of the grill ridges from the pics submitted. That it could be an authentic Z-grill (Z-I type) seems perfectly plausible, but based on what I am able to see for myself, I cannot comment on the OP example.

I have always had trouble distinguishing the various grill types mostly due to not having optimal examples. I remember going to a big show (in Washington?) years ago where they displayed the Ishikawa collection of US. Those grill points could be seen from across the room.

I also think like essayk that there is still a good image missing for the 12c grill in this thread. Until now I am not sure about this grill. Best would be a high resolution photo from directly above the stamp, but the (low) light coming from the side (oblique light). So not the stamp or the camera should be oblique but the light only :).

The guy keeps sending me pix - he's convinced it is a D grill, because it measures 12x14mm - exactly.

The grill on the stamp is hard to see & tough to get good pictures. This was one of the only ones that perhaps may help all of you?

Sigh. Don't tell us he has now used the advanced method of soiling the stamp with graphite... a gift from the really smart people that just keeps giving.

Measuring the dimension of a grill is not advised.

Please ask the owner of the stamp to take a picture of the stamp with the camera squarely over the stamp lit with oblique lighting. The best result is to eliminate all other sources of light. Further, the light should not come straight from the top or the side. Simply put, the light should come in at a low angle (oblique) and shine across the stamp in a diagonal direction!

This thread is an excellent example of the futility of posting in this forum. Information in the Philatelic Foundation Opinions article is enough to identify the grill as a Z grill variety. However, there is no way evade the necessity of submitting the stamp to an expert committee for an opinion. Dangerous Z grill forgeries have been reported. While the grill is likely to be genuine, the perforations on the left side are a cause for concern.

This forum should not be used as a substitute for a certificate from PF, PSE, PSAG or APEX for US stamps with grills or flat plate coils and rare production varieties.

Dangerous fakes exist in the stamp marketplace, especially on ebay. This forum may help submitters identify stamps that have little or no chance of being a better variety. The APS exited the $5 quick ID business. Why should this forum do it for free?

I would still be interested in seeing a better image of the stamp. The difference between PF, PSE, PSAG and APEX and this forum is that this is a forum, and it's great to see other collectors' stamps and talk about them, and of course also learning about them from the more experienced collectors. One lesson for many collectors is also how to make better images or not using graphite :).

In terms of "Z" and "Z-I" grill, the mentioned article is interesting indeed but lets some space in the definition as for example the half point rows do not necessarily have to be really that incomplete. So it's really interesting to talk about whether it's more a continuum between "partial row" and "complete row" which is something many probably did not see until now.

Guy sent a few more pix. Not sure any better ones are possible...

I couldn't disagree more. We're learning & educating & sharing info. That's the opposite of futile...




No kidding...




Same as first answer. Same reason I'm helping this guy.

I told the guy - days ago - that the only way to be certain was to submit the stamp for a cert. But I also suggested to him that it was not worth it, and that the opinions of the folks here - you included Mr. Cfrfoto - would be all that is necessary for me...