Stamp Community Family of Web Sites
Thousands of stamps, consistently graded, competitively priced and hundreds of in-depth blog posts to read








Stamp Community Forum
 
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

This page may contain links that result in small commissions to keep this free site up and running.

Welcome Guest! Registering and/or logging in will remove the anchor (bottom) ads. It's Free!

Scott 38 — 30¢ 1860. Legit?

Previous Page
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 82 / Views: 8,448Next Topic
Page: of 6
Valued Member
United States
79 Posts
Posted 09/16/2024   11:06 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add PhilaFactor to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
ZM, thank you, and thanks for sharing those examples. Wow!

The PPF is amazing. I've seen examples of the presentation cancel before and my recollection is that they're all sulfuretted like that. (Or maybe I've only seen that one before, and yes, it's still sulfuretted LOL!). I'd be interested in knowing if any research has been done explaining why that cancelation format was used, as opposed to a specimen handstamp or ms. "x," and who the intended recipients were for those copies.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
Learn More...
United States
1064 Posts
Posted 09/18/2024   02:03 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ZebraMan to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I have not heard of a definitive explanation of what the "magenta crossed lines defacement" (as described in some auction listings) was used for. A quick Siegel Power Search finds that they have described it in various speculative ways such as:
* probably applied as a specimen mark
* presumably used for presentation purposes
* obliteration which is known to be either a presentation copy or printer's sample
* some students believe examples of this issue with the ruled invalidation lines were prepared as "salesman's samples"

Bill Crowe said in 2020,
"All denominations of the 1857-60 set exist with either magenta or black crossed lines, most with magenta. The rumor is they were cancelled this way as a means of demonetizing them prior to being given away. The term presentation copy is sometimes used. They are mentioned somewhere in the 1¢ books. I put together a complete set of all denominations in the early 80's. In January of this year I saw a different 90¢. I would classify them as uncommon, but not rare."
https://goscf.com/t/75169#671774

So it seems that nobody living today really knows for sure. All of the suggestions of a printer's sample or specimen are conceivable. Maybe I'll post the question in the general 1857 thread that gets more views than this thread.

Without evidence, I assume the crossed lines format was used simply because it required the least effort to mark up an entire sheet with a pen and a ruler, versus handwriting a tiny x or rubber stamp on a sheet of 100 stamps. I wonder if anyone has ever tried to plate these to help conclude whether more than one sheet [pane] of each was produced. There probably aren't enough copies (or high quality scans) out there to do this, of any denomination.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
United States
79 Posts
Posted 09/18/2024   1:33 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add PhilaFactor to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
ZM, that's a great compilation!

There is no tacit indication that Toppan, Carpenter & Co. (TCC) sent defaced copies of 30¢ stamps to the POD for approval purposes. So when or why the magenta-lined stamps were marked in that way is anyone's guess.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
United States
79 Posts
Posted 09/18/2024   4:08 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add PhilaFactor to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Here's a bit of the yin & yang behind plating this stamp using an example that's about as "low hanging fruit" as you can get because it has an easily noticeable double transfer (yellow arrows). What you're looking at is position 69L from the black & white Ashbrook proof pane photos, and a 38P4, proof on card. 69L means 7th row of stamps, second to last subject in the row, left pane. Additional indicators of this plate position:

• strong dot in ornament (green)
• ink smear, left corner, that hooks upward (blue)
• partial erasure of what was, on the design as approved, a continuous line below the "30" tablet. In this example the line segments are much longer than usual (white arrows).

There are other indicators of 69L but those should suffice to get the idea across. The doubled lines present the strongest evidence.

Where it becomes difficult to plate stamps (and proofs) without obvious indicators such as the double transfer has to do, in part, with differences in the extent of the ink smudges at the bottom. In this case, in the B/W photo we see a large smudge under the left curly ornament. But it doesn't present itself to nearly the same extent in the orange proof. Other differences in the smudging are easily seen.

There are other differences as well. Notice how the peak of the arced line at the top of the photograph is continuous and dark. But in the proof there's a noticeable thinning of the line, almost to the point where you could say that there's a gap in the line.



[edited for clarity]
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by PhilaFactor - 09/18/2024 7:27 pm
Pillar Of The Community
Learn More...
United States
1064 Posts
Posted 07/25/2025   4:02 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ZebraMan to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Another example of altered #38s for the archive. Sold on HipStamp yesterday for $104. My favorite part is the syncopated perfs on the sides. The painted lipstick around the left and bottom margins is rather amusing also.

Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Bedrock Of The Community
12569 Posts
Posted 07/25/2025   4:15 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
That stamp looks rebacked. So much of the perimeter design elements are cut off. And yes, those perforations are atrocious! $104? Moronic.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
3490 Posts
Posted 07/25/2025   5:13 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add txstamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
After looking at that stamp my eyes hurt.

I agree - it does appear rebacked; among dozens of other modifications.

edit: The cancel looks like one of the 1861 New Orleans cds's.
Probably used on a double rate French Treaty mail cover to France, or some other foreign use.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by txstamp - 07/25/2025 5:17 pm
Page: of 6 Previous TopicReplies: 82 / Views: 8,448Next Topic  
Previous Page
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.

Go to Top of Page

Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Stamp Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2026 Stamp Community Family - All rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Stamp Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Privacy Policy / Terms of Use    Advertise Here
Stamp Community Forum © 2007 - 2026 Stamp Community Forums
It took 0.14 seconds to lick this stamp. Powered By: Snitz Forums 2000 Version 3.4.05