Amazing Ww Mint Collection In Upcoming Schuyler Rumsey Westpex Sale

I have worked for a number of auction houses in past years. Invariably, they knew which lots might not bring as much as they would want them to, and rather than start them at a comfortable selling amount, they would start below that and have a 'bidder' that would bid up to their selling price. After that, it's up to the audience to set the price. Anyway, these 'bidders' were either part of the book or were one of the bidders represented by one of the bidders of one (or, sometimes, more than one) of the auction agents attending the sale.

So..... I know Frank Mandel was attending the sale - I heard the auctioneer stating, "This lot is sold to FM.....", and I heard a number (like "46") called out from FM. Perhaps one of his clients was the house. I do NOT know if this is the case - I am just saying it MAY be the case. There may have been other agents, too, but I wasn't listening for too long. Anyway, the 'bidder' that protects the house can take many forms, and often many forms within the same sale so as not to draw attention towards any single one.

It can be hard to differentiate a house bid from a dealer's bid, whether the bid be via phone, SAN, or agent. Also, I do not KNOW if this practice occurs with Rumsey, so this is all speculation. But.... it absolutely happens in the industry. You could probably rule out the house bidding on something that has reached the lower figure of the estimated realization, thoulgh.

If the winning bidder is listed, and if you know the ID of the 'house bidders', you could know if the lot sold to someone else or not. I don't know how you can know who the 'house bidders' are though.

Some houses can have their own employees as agents of a sort, like those handling telephone bids. It's obvious who those guys are working for, by my thinking. Before computers, some employees would handle "or" and "limit" bids and complicated stuff on the floor; I've done that many times. It's always been announced what I was doing and I always sat up front so I could not see bidders. Actually, they could ''try'' to read or work me, but all I had was amounts, lot numbers and the requirements.

If an independent agent bids for the house, that's collusion. And that's death for an agent supposedly representing a bidder; they'll never be trusted. mootermutt, how much business has Mandel lost by you just suggesting he might possibly be in the pocket of an auctioneer? Can we also then suspect you have some kind of grudge against Frank Mandel?

I don't think I could have made it more clear that I don't know if that is the case with FM. I have no reason to believe that FM is doing anything underhanded or illegal. He was simply the only agent that I was aware of in attendance. I did NOT mean to sully FM's reputation, if it came across that way. I have nothing but good things to say about Mr. Mandel!

My personal experience with this sort of this sort of thing is from over 30 years ago. Of course, many things are different today. Perhaps the mode with which 'house bids' happen is very different, too. I expect it is.

I agree with MOOT , he was a busy guy at both Greg Manning in New Jersey and at Kelleher in Boston but always held himself as a professional and a pain in the butt to me because his book of clients was huge . He had the auctioneer back up and reopen a few lots . But as Moot says everything was on the level .

If you want to see some eye opening prices ,Look at today's auction prices for the collections section of the Rumsey Actions ,especially the Scott International 's

The number IDs the agent's client. In California agents can NOT carry house bids, AKA shilling. Also when bidding "stops" at one level an agent may have to up the the hammer price because they are holding bids from several clients and that forces the higher bid needed to determine the "winner" on the agent's book.

Now I was a client of Chuck's but need a new agent. What you wrote certainly gives me pause about using FM. WAS that your goal? It worked.

Jim Lee worked as an agent for his clients, but he is retired now.
Stanly Pillar handled some for me, but that is over too.

So I am looking for a good agent. At least I can normally be on the floor at WESTPEX.

Edit:





Sorry floortrader but Moot's and your statements don't line up. So are you saying you agree with Moot's claim the agent may be shilling for the house? One does not write such speculation when one writes all is on the level.

I said what I said as it is a POSSIBILITY. As in: One possibility among many possibilities in a wide and varied universe. Is there anywhere there where I said I knew this activity to be occurring at Rumsey's sale?? For that matter, although I STATED that this activity MAY have occurred, did you for some INSANE reason take that to be that it DID occur?????????? Dare I say that if you bring this state of mind with you while considering a new auction agent, FM (or anyone else) would likely be glad to see you not hire him.

I used FM as an example ONLY because he was the only agent that I heard on the floor for the short time that I had sound on. If I had heard another agent I MAY (OH NO!!!! Are you going to take THAT as certainty??????) have used his/her name in my 'hypothetical'. It is getting so that a person cannot make any input around here without wanting a shower and a signed indemnity form. SMH.

FYI:

"May": means it COULD possibly happen. To assume that it is more likely than not to happen or less likely to happen is on you. To ASSUME it means a certainty of happening implies that the problem is more in the mirror than with the statement.

"Did/Does": means it absolutely happened. Take it to the bank, It is a sure thing. You can count on it.


I will be posting, as I see fit, in the future on various topics with which I have experience and knowledge. If this the reaction to those statements, do me and everyone else here a favor and ignore them. Thank you very much.

Facts are often quiet, opinions are often loud.
Don

Opinions or speculation?

The discussion about auction agents aside, I enjoy these auction discussions about large lots that I will never be involved with. Thanks to everyone that participates.

I've always wondered about that. Like when the bidding stops and the auctioneer says "Sold for 1000" and the agent says "it has to be 1500" it sounded like the agent's client's top bid was 1500 and they were trying to squeeze a little more money out of the client. But as a different auctioneer once explained after it happened, yes, the agent had at least two clients on the same lot, one at 1400 and the other at 1500+.

My question is, why can't the agent save us a lot of time and yell out a jump bid of 1400 so we don't have to sit through the slow internet bids of 500 - 550 - 600 - 650 - 700 - etc. when he knows it has to sell for at least 1400.

Because the auctioneer needs to control the bidding ,he has to be in charge to control the flow of pricing . On a few auctions bidders will call out ,let's say the pricing is going 500 ,550 ,600 and I yell out "800"" then I don't want 650 then 700 and then 750 ..........I just told everybody OK beat my 800 ,part ego and I am willing to pay 800 to the auctioneer . A agent can not do that because then he needs to explain that or disclose to the client what he has in the book .

Got it. That makes sense. The only times I have heard the agent call out a number is to get his "increment". If the floor is at 180 and the agent's next increment is 190 but his client's top bid is 200, he will call out 200 in order to (potentially) win the lot for his client, rather than just bidding 190 and possibly losing it to a floor bid of 200.

I am broke again ......wife is P.O'ed .......got a invoice from Schuyler Rumsey for six items they plan to ship to me . I am hopeing for a good financial report from Disney Corp tomorrow maybe a real good one to get the wife off my back about "wasteing my money on stamps ". Really don't want to wait for the FED's to lower rates to make money on the bank crisis that can be months before I make money on the West Coast banks to rally up .


Well this purchase was a self-reward for myself for being awarded a Brown Belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.

Nice pajamas!!!