Early Switzerland, Silk Thread Color?

I found this item in Grandma's collection. I believe it is from 1855-57, and my Scott's tells me that it should have Black or Yellow Silk threads (if I have identified it correctly). However, I cannot identify anything, from the front or the back. Maybe they are yellow and very hard to see? Can someone help to give me some more guidelines? In addition, I love the Cancel, but am I correct in that the year is not shown? Thanks in advance for your help.


Note: I played with the color and contrast to try to make the threads and/or cancel show up a little better.

Can't really say much on the stamp, but the cancel (which I find very nice) does appear to show the year.
If I'm reading it right, it says 17 Marz, followed by what I initially thought to be an 8. But since these particular issues were no longer valid after 1883, it could also be a 5. The second number is impossible to make out.
So, in my view this cancel is from March 17, 185?...

Hi Partime. You have a georgeous stamp there, a 'Sitting Helvetia' imperforated. The cancel, Sankt Gallen, appears to me to read March 63; these stamps were issued between 1854 and 1962. Swiss stamps were printed on paper with colored threads; some colors are common and some are rare. Keep in mind that sometimes these threads are very faint and far in-between; the yellow ones may be hard to see. With the naked eye they may not be visible. Are you using a magnifying glass and looking at the back of the stamp?

Peter

I've been looking at it with my magnifying glass under intense light, and both the front and the back (back shown below). I didn't notice the intense crease until I scanned the back, but it does transfer to the front. The speckles in the scan are dust particles from my scanner and plastic, but there could be one Black thread ...


I don't know who wrote 2.50 on the back in pencil, but I'm hoping this is worth significantly more. In fact, my Scott's tells me that there is really no difference between Black or Yellow silk threads, so I guess it really doesn't matter. I was just hoping it wasn't a newspaper stamp, but the evidence of the second imperf stamp should make it authentic.

I'll try to play with the exposure and see if I can pick out the date better.

Wow, please excuse my ignorance. What I thought was a crease IS the silk thread. Looking at this specimen, I'd have to go with Yellow. Sorry for my ignorance on this issue.

I found a much better example right next to this one in my collection. Here is one which I believe is from 1858-62 and is the 5r Brown with Green Silk Thread(s). As you can see on the back, it looks like one complete line, and then the actual beginning (or end) of another silk thread line. To me, it looks green, but if someone can convince me that it is Emerald then there are several other options, including whether the impression is Fine or Rough. (I can't tell the difference.)

This is the according to Zumstein numbers old classification #27C (new classification #27B2sz) catalog value 1300 Swiss Francs (~$1400) in SBK catalog.

There is a rare variant on extremely thin paper, which quotes 10'000 Francs. I think yours is the ordinary one.
No doubt it's a stamp from the first row of the sheet with selvage at left, in the German part of Switzerland the issue is called "Strubel", strubel means frizzy. In the French speaking part "Rappen", because of the inscription of the currency Rappen (Rappen = the Cents of the Swiss Franc). It's rare to see such good margins on this value.

Hello Philimpex. I'm glad that you are on board and are able to help out with the identification. I only have the US Scott's Specialized Catalog, so it is difficult to match up the Zumstein numbers.

The One Franc, according to Scotts, was only issued on Medium Thick Paper, in the years 1855 to 1857. The normal stamp is Scott 31 with a Yellow thread. The special is 31a on Thin Paper, and worth considerably more. I would say that this is definitely NOT thin paper, so must be the standard Scott 31, so it sounds like it is the Old Zumstein 27C, new 27B2sz. Scott's says the 2012 value is $1000 used, but there is a note that this value is for (3) full margins (1/4 mm each) and that stamps with (4) margins are "more" rare. I think my example has (3) very good sides, and, in my humble opinion, the right side is poorly cut but a clear margin nonetheless. Looks like a keeper.

I'm not sure about the 5 rappen. I think it has 3 good margins, and one close one, but a good example again. My Scott's leads me to believe that it is from the 1858-1862 version, which states Thick Ordinary Paper, rough impressions, Green silk threads. When comparing the two stamps, the 5 rappen is definitely on thinner paper than the One Franc, but I wouldn't call it Thin (Emergency) Paper, which would put it into the 1857 version worth considerably more. It also appears to be a "Rough" impression when I compare it to the one Franc, which I would call Fine impression.

So, in your opinion, do you concur that it is 1858-62, Rough Impression and Green Silk Thread? I think I can agree that the color is a simple brown, not Pale Grey Brown either.

And welcome to the Forum.

When you get done analyzing the subject, maybe you can take a look at this one. To me, and to my better half, the thread does not look like emerald or green, but a blue-gray.





To me, possibilities appear to be 16, 21, 27, 27a or 37.
(med thick fine impression?)

There are some marks on the back, but I can't make out what they are.

Any chance of larger images?

This is as large as I can get it. Hopefully, you were looking at my original post, which I had not enlarged.

Art,

My Scott's shows that a 27 should have Carmine silk threads. I haven't figured out the impression question yet, but if we are just looking at the crown of the sitting lady, yours appears pretty fine to me. This knocks out 32A or 37. I would lean towards 27, but then how can you trust the guy that couldn't figure out the difference between a silk thread and granite paper?

A very nice (4) margin copy.

Could you explain 'copy' and 'margin'?

I discounted no 37 because if I read Scotts correctly, the color in parens, the color of the font, is carmine,. The color of the font on my subject is white.

Hi Art,

Copy just means "your example". I'm not implying it is a fake or forgery, or anything like that. It is a very nice stamp, and there are no notes in my album to indicate that any forgeries were ever made. That doesn't mean someone out there tried it, but nothing is noted, so you probably have an original stamp.

By margins, I am implying that your stamp has clear areas on all sides of the stamp that do not actually cut into the design. If you look at my first picture, the bottom of the stamp actually cuts into the next stamp. So the poor owner of that stamp has a less desirable copy since it has been cut into the top of the design.

My Scott Specialized has a special comment on what they consider "Margins" for each type of stamp in this area. For example, if you have a 27, then the margins should be 1/4 mm. This means that you should be able to measure 1/4 mm of "white" area on each side of the stamp to have a "clean" margin. It is very difficult to measure 1/4 mm, of course, so good luck with that. All possible versions of this stamp claim 1/4 mm margins on each side. As Philimpex pointed out, I got lucky on my One Franc stamp since it appears to be the first stamp on the left selvage which would have a very wide margin. Usually people don't like the "straight-edge" selvage stamps, but I think this only applies to perforated, not Imperf stamps.

I have both the Scott Classic Specialized, and the standard Scott. The Specialized has more detail and makes sure to point out that the 1855-57 issue is Blue with Carmine silk threads. The earlier issues have Emerald Threads, while the later issues have Green threads. I guess you have to figure out if you have Emerald, Carmine or Green. There is one special version of 1855-57, Scott 26, that is a Milky Blue (never heard of that) with a Red thread.

I hope that this is enough information to both confuse and excite you. Good luck. I'm sure that Philimpex will be able to answer you pretty quickly (and probably negate all of my ramblings above).

I think and this is not Helvetian chauvinism, that regarding Swiss stamps, the Swiss listing should be the ruler, this being a good principle for any countries stamps. To identify correctly Italian stamps one should use Sassone catalog, for French stamps Yvert&Tellier or another French catalog etc., Scott listing is often simplified.
For specializing a particular issue special catalogs or handbooks are indispensable.

Regarding the 1 Franc stamp, if the stamp has no thins it's a keeper, however Swiss collectors dislike parts of second cancellation, the high catalog quotes apply for high grade condition. The stamp should show a light embossing of the Helvetia and all inscriptions.

Regarding the 5 Centimes stamp with the thin on top, this stamp is probably the variety "double silk thread", surely one of the earlier prints (Zumstein 22B?), but this is difficult to identify on Internet pictures. The cancellation is a Swiss lozenge, a standardized cancellation for the whole country, while the earliest prints bear often individual (locally made cancels), cancellations and the last prints are mostly cancelled with cds (as the 10 Centimes stamp in this thread).

Regarding the 10 Centimes stamp, in my opinion if the silk thread is green, it is the last print 23G in Zumstein.
There is a particularity that the earliest prints have the largest margins, the latest prints have extremely narrow printing, so that very few late stamps have full margins, while complete or large margins on early prints are more or less normal..

General note: very often the silk threads are discolored or missing, which both are faults (the use of even a little quantity of bleach makes disappear the color of the silk thread, while the impression of the stamps is quite stable, besides the 15 Centimes red)

Some specialists of "Strubel" stamps (issue ) have recently changed the "classic" listing of Zumstein catalog to a much more complicated listing, the actual Swiss Catalog SBK uses both classifications, as most older collectors and dealers do not like this change..

Philimpex:
Thank you for your analysis. Forgive my ignorance, but I'm having a hard time connecting your analysis with the subject stamp. Is there a correlation between Zumstein Cat. No's and Scott's? It doesn't appear so as Scott's 23 is a 20 centime. Can you give us more particulars on the Zumstein 23g. How does Zumstein correlate to Scott's (as it applies to the subject) and what is Zumstein's range as to the pricing for the issue, (I'm assuming Zumstein has prices, of course.) and specifically what is your opinion as to where the subject fits in that range? Same for Scott's.

You say 'if the thread is green'; it doesn't appear green, but more blue-gray. As you say, it may be discolored or missing. Maybe I need to break out my camera imaging device to get a better look.