Help ID Australian 4d Orange, Scott 31

Hi Partime


What you are receiving now are unpaid professional opinions from a specialist and the end result from expertisers will also be unpaid.

I can assure you that the results will put to rest the mystery of your stamp; I've always been upfront and I have always been truthful, the short wait will be worthwhile and it will answer the questions mentioned on this forum.

It is at the moment believed to be an early state of plate wear, anything very early and early are very desirable and can command a premium price, but we won't know fully until we hear from the expertisers, but it is definitely going to be interesting.

I have a very early state of plate crack block of 4 with the crack showing under the imprint, I also have the early and late crack from the same plate, the only set in existence and is worth a small fortune.

It is best to wait a little longer and see what the outcome brings, I'm waiting (impatiently) to see what these people say.

Rob

Rob, Frank and others. I very much appreciate the comments and discussion around this stamp. If not for this great website, these conversations would be much more one-sided and valuable insight and information would quickly be lost.

I think this also points out that a lot of stamp collecting is still an opinion, mostly due to the lack of detailed information from the original engravers, typesetters, etc. I, of course, appreciate the opinions of experts and ones that have been in the field for many, many years and have seen countless hundreds or thousands of the same stamp probably are able to form a more likely scenario than others. They truly are doing a great service to the stamp community. However, being a member of this forum for many years, I have also seen the too frequent claims of having something unique / valuable and a refusal to show a complete accounting of the actual stamp (including front and back scans) -- something that I have also complained about. I am fully to blame for posting a question without the complete scans, so that is going to be my weekend job.

I actually have some other oddities to post, but they are extremely minor compared to this one, and I will start a different thread on those (someday). Most of those are going to be quickly explained away, but, hey, that is what this site is all about.

I've never actually had any stamp expertized before, so please also excuse my ignorance on that issue. I would have assumed that I could just send in a scan and ask, "is this worth expertizing?" But, as Frank points out, that person is trying to earn a living, and since they are also being constantly asked for free opinions, I would also sometimes expect a curt answer and a request to fill in a form, pay a fee, and I'll get back to you.

What is nice about this site is that there are people like Rob who are willing to go the extra step and do some research well beyond my capabilities, without any thought of compensation. I can assume that Rob's interest is solely in advancing the state of knowledge about Australian Stamps, and anything that comes along that looks to fill a gap in the current knowledge in that area, is a stamp that should be reviewed further. Likewise, Rob's first contact, and that person's interest in forwarding the pictures to other contacts, including Mr. Drury, really make this an exciting adventure, don't you think?

I know I'm not going to become wealthy from this little study in a monetary sense, but I am going to become more wealthy in my knowledge about stamps, their manufacturing methods, how plates wear, when and how they are determined to need replacement, etc. It would be nice to show examples of first wear, early wear, middle wear, late wear, and maybe the final home for this item is one who needs it to complete that study.

In any case, waiting a few days or weeks for more opinions is well worth my time and, I hope, others following this thread.

And, I must add, Rob ... get some sleep. Some of your replies are coming over at times where I expect Australians to be enjoying a good night's sleep.

Hi Partime

I appreciate your response, and a stamp that causes debate such as this particular one is worth investigating, especially when it stumps a specialist of 40 years. And true, this topic does garner debate, and would have to be one of the much better sites I have come upon.

"I think this also points out that a lot of stamp collecting is still an opinion, mostly due to the lack of detailed information from the original engravers, typesetters, etc. I, of course, appreciate the opinions of experts and ones that have been in the field for many, many years and have seen countless hundreds or thousands of the same stamp probably are able to form a more likely scenario than others."

True, but those opinions are usually backed with specific information that a collector such as you, I, Frank and others normally cannot access.

"Rob, Frank and others. I very much appreciate the comments and discussion around this stamp. If not for this great website, these conversations would be much more one-sided and valuable insight and information would quickly be lost."

True, a website such as this is contributing a great service to the stamp community.

"However, being a member of this forum for many years, I have also seen the too frequent claims of having something unique / valuable and a refusal to show a complete accounting of the actual stamp (including front and back scans) -- something that I have also complained about. I am fully to blame for posting a question without the complete scans, so that is going to be my weekend job."

Yes I agree, I have been collecting stamps since I was 12 (1968), and have been collecting seriously since I was 20 (40 years), and the older and more financial I became, I upgraded my stamps and was able to hunt for the elusive specimens. When I see the same claims I also advise the person to provide a better scan front and back, and explain that many stamps may look like the rarer variety, but lack what makes it rare.

I am not an expert but I do have a fair knowledge as to what I say and I do have a small library of up-to-date reference books and catalogues, plus I'm a phone call away from people I know who are experts.

I cannot see how you can blame yourself, regardless of the question you made, the variety you posted was large enough to stoke interest in a specialist who is a 40 year veteran in dealing with pre-decimal stamps.

"I actually have some other oddities to post, but they are extremely minor compared to this one, and I will start a different thread on those (someday). Most of those are going to be quickly explained away, but, hey, that is what this site is all about."

You should purchase an album or dedicate a section of an album for varieties only; many oddities are easily explained away, but there may come an instance when that one stamp will create a debate.

I've never actually had any stamp expertized before, so please also excuse my ignorance on that issue. I would have assumed that I could just send in a scan and ask, "is this worth expertizing?" But, as Frank points out, that person is trying to earn a living, and since they are also being constantly asked for free opinions, I would also sometimes expect a curt answer and a request to fill in a form, pay a fee, and I'll get back to you.

There is no ignorance on your part, and although I respect Franks input, and even though these experts need to make a living, they also give time to view an image if properly scanned, if it is scarce, rare etc., that is where they make the money, not from their opinion; I have at numerous times in purchasing a stamp(s) I would submit an image of the stamp for appraisal, if the expertiser believes there is some worth in the stamp, he most likely will ask you to forward the stamp for a much better appraisal, and if it not worth certifying he will explain why without cost, and that's a fact.

And I can assure you that while I'm at the helm, no curt answer and fee asking for an opinion will be forthcoming.

You have heard of the B.C.O.F. stamps, not only do I have the complete set, but also a complete set of overprint trials on paper (without the stamp); I am also halfway through collecting the entire set of trial proofs which are the only truly 1946 specimens, the overprint trials on paper are also original 1946 specimens, what you see for sale on the internet and in stamp shops were issued in 1947.

The entire set of trial proofs are extremely rare, and before the end of the year will post what I will have at that moment, they are very seldom seen and when one appears that I do not have, I will try and obtain it.

I know that trial B.C.O.F. stamps can be forged so I sent an image of each stamp to an expertiser, who said that on the surface they looked genuine but would like to view them in person, as they are quite rare, and seeing that he lived in another state I took them to him personally and travelled back to him to pick them up with the certificates, these certificates will also be posted with the stamps.

What is nice about this site is that there are people like Rob who are willing to go the extra step and do some research well beyond my capabilities, without any thought of compensation. I can assume that Rob's interest is solely in advancing the state of knowledge about Australian Stamps, and anything that comes along that looks to fill a gap in the current knowledge in that area, is a stamp that should be reviewed further. Likewise, Rob's first contact, and that person's interest in forwarding the pictures to other contacts, including Mr. Drury, really make this an exciting adventure, don't you think?

I like to give assistance to any query pertaining to stamps and if I can't I will find someone that will.

"I know I'm not going to become wealthy from this little study in a monetary sense, but I am going to become more wealthy in my knowledge about stamps, their manufacturing methods, how plates wear, when and how they are determined to need replacement, etc. It would be nice to show examples of first wear, early wear, middle wear, late wear, and maybe the final home for this item is one who needs it to complete that study".

Who knows what the outcome may be, and yes, the information that this stamp will bring will be of great value within itself. And if it is scarce etc., I will endeavour to find what the value of the stamp will be and will if you intend to see any time soon or in the future wanting to sell it, I will buy it off you in US dollars of course and not with our monopoly money.

"And, I must add, Rob ... get some sleep. Some of your replies are coming over at times where I expect Australians to be enjoying a good night's sleep".

I wish I could but unfortunately I work during the night (thus the unusual times) and I don't think the boss will appreciate me sleeping on the job.

I am due for a holiday soon and will definitely be enjoying a good night's sleep.

Rob

OK, back home with the stamp and had time to re-scan the front and scan the back. Nothing new was discovered on the front. On the back scan, we can easily see the upright watermark, and I also note that it is NOT a thin paper variety. It is nice to see a small hinge mark, but otherwise the paper is clean and free of thins and other repairs.

I knew it would be an upright single crown. Good large scan.

Here is another closeup from my Celestron showing the same area, but also that little white spot below the left numeral block.

Partime

Your scans and the Retroreveal process confirm that part of the watermark is directly below a part of the F thus increasing the possibility that it contributed to the appearance of the flaw.

What a lot of people do not seem to know is that the watermarks in Australia's early stamps were created by a Dandy Roll which impressed the watermark in the wet paper pulp. This impression was applied to the printing surface of the sheet leaving minute depressions in the paper surface. The effects of these depressions was dependant on various factors including the fibre structure, the thickness of the paper, the pressure of the Dandy Roll and the paper finishing process.
Thus the reason we need to see where the watermark is (not to look for inverted watermarks which you are perfectly capable doing).

I searched three volumes of the ACSC and the Stampboards wiki on KGV 4d but could not find anything similar. My plating experience is mostly with Roos so I am not able to take this forward but can only suggest that you consider posting on Stampboards where a number of knowledgeable people are available. Below the flaw noted in the value shield are dents in the lower stamp margin and to the right a break in the margin which might be identifiable by an experienced plater.

If anyone reading this owns the 4d Handbook by Davidson & Dix they might be able to help.

With regard to expertising, I copy for you an interesting comment from Stamporama - " I sent the block of 4 to a specialist who personally gave it to Kris Ceremuga; even though the stamp has been authenticated by specialists and listed as rare, Ceremuga said he cannot certify it as it is not as yet listed in the ACSC."(Rob1956) This suggests that expertising might be your last port of call.

Chris Ceremuga has an internet presence at ceremuga.net/certificates.html which explains his requirements. Michael Drury does not appear to have an internet presence so he probably relies on dealers to forward his business.

Regards
Frank

I'm also a member of Stampboards and he can use Stampboards if he so chooses, but I would still advise him to wait until he hears from those who are experts in their field first.

Also you posted this comment:"I sent the block of 4 to a specialist who personally gave it to Kris Ceremuga; even though the stamp has been authenticated by specialists and listed as rare, Ceremuga said he cannot certify it as it is not as yet listed in the ACSC."(Rob1956) This suggests that expertising might be your last port of call."

That is what I said, and it is a fact; only because that particular block of 4 is the only one known to exist and is very rare. But this doesn't digress from the fact that Ceremuga (whom I know personally) is a world expert on Commonwealth stamps.

Like all expertisers, they need reference books to help with identifying stamps, if the stamp is not listed in any reputable catalogue they cannot give an expert opinion. (The ACSC mentions mine briefly which is shown below – "One example has been seen showing a very early state of crack, without perforation pip below")


Also Ceremuga has very advanced equipment worth many thousands of dollars that he utilises for his work that allows him to further his investigation into the identification of stamps. He is world renowned and his certificates are very much sought after.

So do not mislead anyone by what I had posted on Stamporama. Also Michael Drury does not need a website to promote his expertise, he is very much in demand and every serious collector and every dealer who sells King George V stamps know of him.

"Chris Ceremuga has an internet presence at ceremuga.net/certificates.html which explains his requirements. Michael Drury does not appear to have an internet presence so he probably relies on dealers to forward his business."

And what has a website got to do about the experience of an expertiser. If a person is very good at what he does, word of mouth travels faster than a website. Ceremuga knows him, virtually every dealer knows of him, and just about every-one on Stampboards knows of him, so why would he need a website; he is doing quite well without one.

And for using my comment to mislead a member on Stamp Community and then saying "This suggests that expertising might be your last port of call" is the wrong message to send out.

I have stamps that were certified by Kris, one that he expertised as extremely rare, the replacement value worth thousands of dollars; and others, such as a rare superbly centred £1 Coronation Specimen, the very thin and very rare £2 Coat-of-Arms and for each of the 4 proof B.C.O.F. stamps I have, and all my King George V stamps that are of value have a Drury certificate; I will not buy a rare stamp unless it either has a Ceremuga or Drury certificate attached to it.

And considering it is not uncommon for me to spend a thousand or more dollars on a single stamp, the certificates (below) from these two men are paramount.

To be honest, I signed up for Stampboards a few years ago and found it incredibly hard to navigate and find specific topics. I haven't been back since.

I know what you mean.

Received a call today and finally have the info on the 4d variety (took awhile). It is a one-off variety, but it isn't of much value.

There were many such varieties during the King George V era, and many were one-off.

But because there were so many, it would be impossible to list all in the ACSC, thus the reason why it isn't included.

But nevertheless it is a curio, and would be a nice addition for anyone who collects varieties.

Nooooo!! What an anti-climax, I was really hoping it would be one of those truly unique rags to riches discoveries.
It was however fascinating reading, loved the debate and thanks for sharing.
Great place this site.....

Always nice to hear an outcome, whichever way,
Well done Rob. Thanks.

Well, that's no good. A keeper anyway, with lots of backup commentary on the hunt for that elusive one.

I feel like I played the Game of Thrones (GOT)... and lost. Maybe we can use the acronym of GOT for any more possible finds of fantastic items. For example ... I think I just GOT one.

At least you get to keep your head while playing the Game of Thrones with our stamps.

On to the next one.

Add: And yes, thanks to Rob for his research on this item. Much appreciated.

Sorry for the delay in replying, had a bit of bother with my diabetes; anyway, thanks for the appreciation, I'm here to help anytime.

Rob