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Let's Take A Look At Proofs

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Bedrock Of The Community
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10633 Posts
Posted 01/07/2016   10:14 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
All were moved to the back except the 10 cent value, Scott 62B. Apparently there was enough proof of legitimate postal use to maintain it as a postage issue.
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Pillar Of The Community
1545 Posts
Posted 01/07/2016   5:31 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add I Brake For Stamps to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
essayk-- Your encyclopedic knowledge of this subject and your presentation of it is, for lack of a better word... impressive.


-IBFS
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All science is either Physics or Stamp Collecting. -- Ernest Rutherford
Pillar Of The Community
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1033 Posts
Posted 01/07/2016   6:05 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rgstamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
anyone interested in viewing auction on ebay recently of scott 94p5, I found this link below-- looks like proof sold for 72$. It was USED, similar to my stamp (vs. proof?) which I find intriguing. However, the fraction of adjoining stamp is in right margin guaranteeing it is a true imperforate proof.

I guess my copy can never be guaranteed because it could have been trimmed from regular issue 94 on thin paper. definitely not worth a certificate for any of these since they are low value proofs. Thank you all for your input

http://www.ebay.fr/itm/nystamps-US-...AOSwv-NWXF3O
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Bedrock Of The Community
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10633 Posts
Posted 01/07/2016   9:35 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I seriously doubt that this is a proof either. It is just a straddle margin example that was cut off center into the design of the next stamp, not an all that uncommon occurrence. This seller is not one to trust the descriptions of for any out of the ordinary US material. He simply is not knowledgeable enough.
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Valued Member
United States
211 Posts
Posted 01/07/2016   10:56 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add dsmith426 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
essayk, revcollector & 1typesetter,

Thank you for all the info. Before I started trying to learn about stamps I used to think people calling themselves Philatelists was just silly, but there is so much to learn just to get a basic understandings of postage stamps. Definitely a different type of hobby then I'm used to.

revcollector,

I will probably as you about revenues at some point in the future. I seem to like the ones with George Washington in them.

essayk,

What can you tell me about the blue Benjamin Franklin stamp which has a coupon selvage on it pictured in your collage of experimentals you posted? I saw one on ebay a couple weeks ago advertised as 63 with a coupon. I didn't understand how it worked and asked the seller and he said he didn't know and it was the first time he ever had one. I just assumed all the stamps had this coupon until the photo of your experimentals.
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Edited by dsmith426 - 01/07/2016 11:08 pm
Valued Member
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211 Posts
Posted 01/07/2016   10:59 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add dsmith426 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
essayk,

One more question, I read the other day that the original intended design for the first postage stamp was not Benjamin Franklin, but was Andrew Jackson and they even engraved the printing plate for the Andrew Jackson stamp. Do these exist as Essays? I would love to see a picture of it.

Thanks again
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
1944 Posts
Posted 01/07/2016   11:01 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add essayk to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
However, the fraction of adjoining stamp is in right margin guaranteeing it is a true imperforate proof. [ed.- emphasis mine]


Please don't make that mistake.

It would seem that you are not familiar with the term "straddle pane" or "straddle margin" stamp. Perhaps an illustration will help.

Most stamps prior to 1890 were printed in sheets of 200, consisting of a right and left pane of 100 separated by a thin gutter between the two panes. When these sheets were perforated the positions along the gutter received no perforations on either side of the gutter itself. Instead the panes were cut apart with a knife cut down the gutter, leaving a straight edge on either the right or left side of the affected stamps.

However, sometimes the sheet was positioned in such a way that the knife cut into the designs on one side or the other, giving rise to what collectors call "straddle pane" copies. All of the stamps in this image are "straddles:"





Some of these stamps had generous margins on all sides. These could be trimmed of perforations, and still have ample margins to support the claim that they were imperforate. The kicker was the design remnant on the far side of the straddle with no perforations between it and the main stamp. This effect "proved" that the stamp could not have had perforations.

In this next illustration I have digitally "trimmed" the perfs off the three cent in the previous picture. The stamp on the left is the original state, and on the right is its "imperforate" counterpart.




People who don't know about normal pane separation and the existence of straddle pane stamps could easily be taken in by the ruse. Don't let that happen to you.

The surest way to collect imperforates is in joined multiples of two or more:

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Edited by essayk - 01/08/2016 12:18 am
Pillar Of The Community
United States
1944 Posts
Posted 01/08/2016   12:04 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add essayk to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
What can you tell me about the blue Benjamin Franklin stamp which has a coupon selvage on it


That type is the brainchild of George W. Bowlsby, for which he received a patent in December 1865. Here is a closer look:





The stamp is gummed only behind the design, but not behind the tab. The idea was that the stamp would be affixed to the envelope and then the tab would be torn off and retained by the PO as a voucher. Stamps without tabs would not be valid for use, as noted on the tab, and so reuse was impossible.

The idea was rather ingenious, but it had a tragic flaw. Does this picture of a block give you any hints?






Quote:
the original intended design for the first postage stamp was not Benjamin Franklin, but was Andrew Jackson and they even engraved the printing plate for the Andrew Jackson stamp.


If you don't mind, could you tell me where you were reading that? I may not know much, but I know a few things about the design plans for the first postage issue, and there is no substance whatsoever to the idea that a plate of Andrew Jackson design essays was ever fashioned for that. There are certainly no prints from anything like that. The rationale for the choice of Franklin and Washington for the first Federal issue focused on firsts: first Postmaster General, and first president. I cannot see why anyone would say that Jackson was a serious contender (to the extreme of having a plate of essays prepared.) Jackson does not appear on a postage stamp until the 2c of 1863 was issued in July of that year.

So I'd like to see the source of that "information" to see what they were really talking about (no offence to you intended in that remark).

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Posted 01/08/2016   12:38 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add dsmith426 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
This is what I read which is supposed to be the original correspondence:

March 20, 1847: New York City
RWH & E submit the five- and ten-cent stamp designs to J. W. Brown, the Second Assistant PMG, for his approval. They inform him that they have followed his suggestion and used the head of Benjamin Franklin in place of the head of Jackson, which had originally been requested by the PMG. If the PMG still preferred Jackson it could be used instead. The firm was making steel dies of the designs so that the stamps could be produced immediately in the event that the designs were approved.

I found it at a site called the Smithsonian National Postal Museum. Here is the link:

http://postalmuseum.si.edu/research...ondence.html

Now that I see it again, I do see they say steel dies vs steel plates, but my question still stands. Curious what the Jackson stamp looked like.
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Edited by dsmith426 - 01/08/2016 01:56 am
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Posted 01/08/2016   12:41 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add dsmith426 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I don't see the problem with the coupon stamps unless you mean it uses more paper.
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Posted 01/08/2016   10:02 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add dsmith426 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Essayk,

You seemed surprised about Jackson was going to be used before the change to Franklin so I assume the 'Conventional Wisdom' in the hobby doesn't mention the original Jackson design. I also remember reading (from a different source) that the images of Franklin and George Washington came from vignettes on banknotes engraved by Rawdon, Wright and Hatch. So on the premise of what if the Jackson design was also a vignette on a Rawdon, Wright, and Hatch banknote I did a search to see if I could find one. And a google search brought of this image of one of their banknotes from 1836 which has a vignette of Jackson.



So if there is no existing essay known to exist. Popping that Jackson vigenette into the Franklin Frame just might be how the original stamp looked like prior to the change turning it into a Benjamin Franklin stamp.
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Edited by dsmith426 - 01/08/2016 10:10 am
Pillar Of The Community
United States
1944 Posts
Posted 01/08/2016   4:49 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add essayk to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Now that I have attended to my icy front steps it is time to devote some attention to the latest developments here. And for starters I want to shout out a word of encouragement to Mr. Smith for the spadework he has done in finding references and images for putting a case together. Now I wish to refine it, but with all respect for what he has tried to do. Good job my friend!

Your detective work is good, but in your interpretations you are jumping to some conclusions, some of which may have merit, but some of it is mistaken. Please recall that before you told me what you were reading you had reported that a portrait of Jackson was preferred for the 5c and that a plate had been made for that. Your question to me concerned what that might look like. As it turns out this is very far from the events described in the correspondence as referenced by Ms. Clark of the NPM. My task now is to help sort out fact from fancy.

Though not named as such, the article by Ms Clark is a 1997 first glimpse of what came to be called "the Travers Papers," which had been donated to the NPM by the late Jack Rosenthal for the national collection. The contents of these papers have subsequently been edited and published, first in book form for the issue of 1847, and now online at the USPCS website for the rest. I am familiar with them in a general way, especially for the period of the Bank Note issues, but since I am not a student of the issue of 1847 I only get into details of its discussion on occasion.
You can find out more about all this at the USPCS archive here: http://www.uspcs.org/travers-papers/

Two letters from 1845 argue for the utility of a Federal postage stamp, for which an act of Congress would be required. After a gap of two years, the correspondence begins in earnest with two items from March 20, 1847:

March 20, 1847: New York City
The firm of Rawdon, Wright, Hatch and Edson (RWH & E) submit rough designs for the proposed five- and ten-cent stamps. The stamps would be sold to the Post Office Department at the rate of 25 cents per thousand.

March 20, 1847: New York City
RWH & E submit the five- and ten-cent stamp designs to J. W. Brown, the Second Assistant PMG, for his approval. They inform him that they have followed his suggestion and used the head of Benjamin Franklin in place of the head of Jackson, which had originally been requested by the PMG. If the PMG still preferred Jackson it could be used instead. The firm was making steel dies of the designs so that the stamps could be produced immediately in the event that the designs were approved.

According to this correspondence:

1. the suggestion of the PMG to use a Jackson portrait was just that, and it did not go very far.
2. the recommendation to use a bust of Franklin came from the 2nd ass't PMG, and was incorporated into the design submissions by R,W,H & E.
3. RWH&E were willing to use a bust of Jackson instead of Franklin if the PMG preferred, but intimated that either way the same frame would be used.
Preparation of the steel dies would proceed on the assumption that their proposal would be approved, starting with the frames alone.

Here is an image of the earliest surviving design stage of the frame for the 5c, which was ultimately approved. It is taken from the sale catalog for the "Belmont" collection by Siegel in 1981.




As for the suggestion of the Postmaster General that a vignette of Jackson be used for the new stamps, the correspondence is silent about exactly when that preference was expressed. Jackson had died in 1845, and as things go in Washington, there may have been some immediate sentiment to memorialize the man with a lasting tribute. But the correspondence does not tell us the motive of the PMG for the thought, nor its intensity. The suggestion of the 2nd assistant PMG apparently had more going for it.

It has long been known that the Franklin vignette used in the design for the 5c of 1847 was originally designed and engraved by Asher B. Durand, who never worked for RWH&E. He created a stock die for use on banknotes about 1830 or earlier while in partnership with his brother and others as Durand, Perkins & Co. The assets of the company were liquidated in 1832, and that is when the stock die of Franklin was acquired by the newly formed Rawdon, Wright, Hatch & Co. (immediate predecessor to RWH&E). Ms. Clark referenced a use of this Franklin vignette in a note of the Bank of Manchester, Michigan, and a corresponding use of the Washington stock die on another note of the same bank. Here is the note for the Franklin:




Note that it is dated to November of 1837. That is comparatively late for this vignette. Here is a much earlier note from the Merchants and Planters Bank at Magnolia (Florida) which is dated to December 20, 1832. This is within a few months of the first organization of RWH&Co. and is the earliest use of this vignette by them.




The Travers Papers make it clear that the engravers had planned from the outset on a vignette of Franklin, and this was the vignette they planned to use in the frame as given above. However, if the PMG insisted on a vignette of Jackson, they were prepared with a stock vignette of the same vintage as the Franklin (which is illustrated on the 1836 Ypsilanti note above) to place him in the frame. This I believe is your thinking as well.

In all this I see no evidence, nor the basis for any claim, that the engraving of a new die for a postage stamp showing a vignette of Jackson ever took place, let alone the claim that a plate was fashioned from such a die.

Edit: Let me here add the note that the year dates on the notes in this post, and the vast majority of all others, were added in pen to the notes at the time of their usage, not at the time of their printing. Some notes do bear printed dates as part of their designs, but when these are added in pen, as here, they are the work of the bank officials who authorize them for use as currency. This means that a note might have been produced months or even years prior to their usage. Because the banks issuing the notes paid a tidy sum to have them prepared, generally speaking not much time went by before they get a date written on. But these dates only give us a terminus post quem for the date of production of the note itself.
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Edited by essayk - 01/09/2016 08:35 am
Pillar Of The Community
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Posted 01/08/2016   6:01 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add essayk to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I don't see the problem with the coupon stamps unless you mean it uses more paper.



What would happen if I needed to make up a rate with a full block of stamps and then some? How do things fit an envelope, and what happens when it is time to "cancel" the stamps that have been mounted as a block?
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Posted 01/12/2016   01:10 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add essayk to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Anyone hear any more from dsmith426? Never got to explain about the function of the die, its role in fashioning the plate, and how its proofs differed.

The conversation just stopped in mid stream, so I went back and looked at some of his posts over the last month. From what I read he seems to be an exceptional person, and I hope he will continue dialog here, irrespective of the specific subject. I am sure that this thread became information overload for him, but I also hope it helped alert him to the fact that we have the resources to create something that will serve his interests, and those of other newbies, if we can benefit from the guidance his input can give. He is the one with the questions, the will to understand, and a better sense of what it will take to make that happen for him than anyone of us.

One of the great benefits I have experienced in this hobby is the potential for a meeting of the minds over time and space. I hope the dialog can continue.
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Posted 01/15/2016   3:45 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add GregAlex to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Well, let me just say he's not the only one getting an education from this thread! I arrived late, but it's a fascinating read. Threads like this make me miss the Essay-Proof Journal, which was chock full of such esoteric information.

And as a side note, I also happen to collect obsolete banknotes from Washtenaw County, Michigan -- which include those posted from Manchester and Ypsilanti. (Ann Arbor is my hometown and I went to college in Ypsi.) The Bank of Ypsilanti notes were first issued in 1836 and the $1-$2-$3-$5-$10 notes all have the Washington and Franklin portraits. The Bank of Manchester opened in 1837. These towns are less than 30 miles from each other, so I would posit the Manchester bankers liked the look of the Ypsi notes and decided to also use the Washington and Franklin vignettes.



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