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Scott Catalog And Online Resources Not Showing 279Bk Used Value?

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Posted 02/05/2022   9:45 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add hac5x3 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I emailed Scott and asked and received no reply. But the catalog does not list either a cover or a used value for Scott 279BK. Does anyone know why? It's also not anywhere online as far as I can tell. For example:

Used - No sales recorded: https://www.theswedishtiger.com/279B-scotts.html

And help in understanding this or determining value would be greatly appreciated.
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Posted 02/05/2022   9:59 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Siegel has not sold any used complete panes. The PF has certified one (Cert #511631).



http://pfsearch.org/pfsearch/pf_grd...tFirst=First

Likely you cannot find a value because there are no sales records for such a rare bird. The one shown above looks like it came off of a bank tag?

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Posted 02/05/2022   10:09 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Since 279Bj and 279Bk catalog the same mint, and the j is also pretty rare used, that value is probably a pretty good place to start.
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Posted 02/05/2022   10:32 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add John Becker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
hac3x5,
To get some clarity, is this a theoretical question or do you have such an item? If so, please share it with us. And since condition is such an important factor in value, an image will enable us to give a more useful response.
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Edited by John Becker - 02/05/2022 10:32 pm
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Posted 02/05/2022   10:42 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add hac5x3 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Sorry should have posted a picture. I posted the stamp here originally:

https://goscf.com/t/79943

And this is the cover.
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Posted 02/05/2022   11:05 pm  Show Profile Check eyeonwall's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add eyeonwall to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Scott never prices booklet singles used or unused.
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Posted 02/05/2022   11:10 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add John Becker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The fact that Scott does not list/value the early used booklet singles (either soaked or on-cover) means few collectors seriously chase them. Even though I think they are different, better and collectible, the reality of the non-listing status means lower demand than would otherwise be expected. Additionally, with modest diligence they can be found in dealer $1 boxes, so there is not much reason to pay more than that if you have a little time to look for one.

Looking at other facets, the Barry machine cancel was used in Pueblo for more than a decade, with several dies and killers. Broadly speaking, it is common, although dated a bit later than this particular "Col" town-die is known in Morris & Payne's "The Barry Story" volumes. The cover has damage in one corner. Still a likely candidate to be found in a $1 box.
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Edited by John Becker - 02/05/2022 11:28 pm
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Posted 02/05/2022   11:46 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add hac5x3 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
If it were so common I would be able to find at least one sale on a cover. I can find none. In fact, I can't find another used version. So what we're saying is that there are no collectors who collect this stamp and that it's flowing all over the place in dealer $1 boxes and you can pick them up at will. I'd like to see another. If anyone has one.
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Posted 02/05/2022   11:57 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add John Becker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
They are not particularly common, but TO THE OBSERVANT they can be found since few are chasing them. The absence of online listings does not imply rarity as $1 covers are not worth the overhead costs and time to list on ebay - or if they list such, to differentiate among the various sheet and booklet flavors of 279B.
Here is one I found in a $1 box shortly before covid.


If you are wanting someone to tell you they are worth big bucks, then someone else will have to tell you that.

Now, it's time for me to be silent for a while and let others have a chance to participate in this thread with their observations and knowledge.
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Edited by John Becker - 02/06/2022 12:02 am
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Posted 02/06/2022   01:49 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Parcelpostguy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
If it were so common I would be able to find at least one sale on a cover. I can find none. In fact, I can't find another used version.


The general fact is booklets are wanted complete and unused, booklet pane complete or the tab missing from the pane of stamps are sought out mint, used and on cover. Singles are of no interest mint nor used, except to acknowledge the stamp design was issued as a booklet.

An on cover used single can carry a bit more interest from a collect who is likely an exhibitor who want to show a basic single on cover as proper postal history. That does not make it expensive, it is just expected to be seen in such an exhibit/collection. Additionally, their is usually only one serious exhibit/collection philatelist chasing those singles on a cover at a time. Thus quite low demand.

The exception is that the AEF pane singles are collected in any manner, including on cover, which demonstrates they are from the AEF panes.

In the auction link, lot 1205 is one such example of single booklet pane stamps "on cover" being collected, both a one cent and two cent. But do realize they were along for the ride as the two 423's catalog on cover in Scott at $7500 and the Q-11 is unpriced save a "--" with all used from Alaska. I own that lot now, if not, I own the second one referenced in the auction description I just don't remember which; perhaps both. Same stamps and same post office of mailing.

The most recent serious booklet pane collection amassed was by the late Mr. Phil Beutel, mostly while he lived in Colorado Springs. Besides collecting them he also ran ads for years in Linn's and other publications mail order dealing in booklet panes as well as coils with partial plate numbers. He even created measuring devices for the coils, one which I believed received a US Patent, although his run of them were done while the patent was pending and thus has that phrase on them. His sales ran a few dollars per customer per sale. He did this for enjoyment and to find low value but uncommon items for himself.

Phil as he asked me to call him since the 1970's collected seriously and included pricey items which included truly unique items, meaning there was just one example. Such an example was the mint strip of five of Scott 389, with the line of a line pair on the outer edge. He could purchase such material as he was a self-made millionaire (when a million still had value) patenting and peddling medical equipment. He was even asked to produce the Jarvik-7 (Google is your friend) but decline for the reason he did not see himself wanting to use one and felt most others would draw the same conclusion.

I wrote all of that to say he collected cheap to expensive, common to the unique and tried for completeness when he did. Whenever I was in Colorado Springs, often with out a vehicle, he'd pick me up, we would eat and retire to his home and review his collection. With a car, I drove up to his home directly and at times he came to watch me compete at the USOTC in town.

His booklet and booklet panes were sold here:

https://siegelauctions.com/2010/991/991.pdf


Save for a few exceptions, Phil did not collect booklet singles, mint used or on cover. If he did collect less than a pane it was to demonstrate it came from a particularly difficult "pane position" with in the press sheet. As you can see there were more 279bj and 279bk panes and booklet than I cared to count.

So as John Becker said there is no demand (read interest) in on cover usages of your stamp. Thus the price is very, very low compared to availability. Such covers cannot make a single lot in a brick and mortar auction firms nor are worth listing in line for sale. They are found in person in dealer boxes or in large common cover collections.

One last comment on Phil and completeness. He had the largest collection of C-11 plate blocks of which I am aware, missing only a few. There are 1000s of individual two color plate numbers and two color "TOP" (or no TOP) to make a complete set.

He also want three sets of the US WF Blue Paper sheet stamps. But when that was not possible, he wanted position plate blocks of six, a plate strip of three or a plate number pair or single with the adjoining stamps, now separated. So again, if Phil did not chase booklet singles few other would bother.

Even truly rare error items don't mean they have value. Few are willing to pay much for my missing gum errors; errors where during stamp production gum failed to be applied to entire stamps due to what are known as "gum skips" large skips in my case. Not going to find those sale prices on line either.

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Posted 02/06/2022   07:47 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hac5 - I had no idea you were referencing just a single stamp.
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Posted 02/06/2022   12:27 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add DJCMHOH to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
While Scott does not list the booklet singles, Michel does and booklet singles are much more popular among Continental European collectors as a result. Michel A126D (one side imperforate) catalogues €30 used, A126E (2 adjacent sides imperforate) is €60. Michel runs high in its CVs so market would prob be 10% of CV at most.
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APS #173088
Edited by DJCMHOH - 02/06/2022 12:44 pm
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Posted 02/06/2022   1:12 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Parcelpostguy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Michel does and booklet singles are much more popular among Continental European collectors as a result. Michel A126D (one side imperforate) catalogues €30 used..... Michel runs high in its CVs so market would prob be 10% of CV at most.


So 10% of 30 euros is 3 Euros, or $3.43 USD undamaged (yours is chewed along the edge). Still a dollar box item on cover and not of a value worth an auction lot in the USA.
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Posted 02/06/2022   5:03 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add hac5x3 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
John, I appreciate you taking the time to answer. And I acknowledge you have far superior knowledge. I didn't mean to insult you. However, you are not the first expert who has weighed in and that person said I should have it certified because it is valuable. How valuable? Well, there is no market apparently. Because I think you would have to admit that it is very curious that I can't find a single sale over the last 10 years. There are sales of the most benign stamp covers. But not this one. It's also curious that the underlying stamp is valuable and rare, both used and mint, but a cover with the stamp would have little or no value. Is there another instance of this occurrence? And finally, it's also curious considering the is no apparent listed value. Rodgam in this very thread, who may be very knowledgeable himself, says it is "rare." The fact that you may have a cover with this stamp, doesn't necessarily diminish scarcity. I assume you have been collecting for many years. In any event, again, I appreciate you taking the time to answer the question.
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Posted 02/06/2022   5:16 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Rodgam in this very thread, who may be very knowledgeable himself, says it is "rare."


An intact used booklet pane is rare.
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Posted 02/06/2022   5:44 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add John Becker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I wasn't insulted at all. I didn't want to monopolize the conversation. Anyway, the cost of the cert is more than the value of the item, so sending such items for certification isn't seen by most collectors as very rational. Several responders have been fairly clear that you won't find auction results in the philatelic auction world for low value items. Value is a combination of supply AND demand. The demand isn't there. Period. No matter how much you may wish it were different, it just won't make it true. If you insist on an auction result, then you should sell yours and then you will have one. What do you think it should be worth?
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